EP 19: Jennet Ingle

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity. For the complete interview, you can access here.

Kristine Dizon: Hello, my name is Kristine Dizon and I'm the CEO and Founder of The Modern Artist Project. Today, I'm with Jennet Ingle who is the Principal Oboist of the South Bend Symphony Orchestra, Jennet is a soloist at heart, joyfully taking over any stage that will have her lifelong interest in new music lead to a recent commissioning project “Dreams and Visions (Searching the Shadows)” by Marjorie Rush, which is a triptych based on cards from the tarot deck. As the owner and operator of Jennet Ingle Reeds, she makes over 200 handmade reeds every month and helps people with her own reed-making through her YouTube series, the “Five Minute Reed Maker”. Her weekly online reed club and her beginner course “Zero to Reed Maker.” She's even offered a program for Oboe, and is hoping to start a reed business of their own.
Jennet has recently focused on building a community for adult oboists. Her signature group program, “The Invincible Oboist” demystifies instrumental skills and helps oboists to get past their struggles to find ease in their playing. Her 2022 book, “The Happiest Musician” encourages creatives to take agency in their careers instead of waiting to be chosen. So thank you Jennet, for joining us today.no

Jennet Ingle: Thanks, Kristine, what a pleasure.

KD: I know I already talked about a lot of the things that you currently do. So what I'm curious about has what led you on this path.

JI: When I graduated from Eastman, I was so clear that my career was going to be, that I was going to get a principal Oboe job in a big orchestra and that would provide my paycheck and my benefits and my credibility and my validation in the world. That was my entire plan. And as you know, it's really hard to win a big job, one of those huge jobs because there just aren't enough jobs out there for the number of talented people in the world.
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So over and over again, I would be in the semis, I would be in the finals, I would be the runner up, I would almost get the job and then I kept not quite getting the job, but meanwhile, I was living my actual life. I was working a day job, I was selling bagels, then I was selling CSO tickets. I was working gigs, little jobs, and then slightly bigger jobs and I was winning, the regional orchestras positions.

During that time, another one of the things I did to just bring in a little bit of money was I started making reeds for another local freelancer, and I made her reads for a couple of years. And when she didn't need me anymore, I realized that I really missed that. I really missed the, not just the money, which was a real thing, I really missed the process of making a bunch of reeds that weren't born out of my own oboist IQ scarcity.
Like I need to have a reed for tonight. I must have a reed. I really liked making a lot of reeds because then I always had one to play on and then I could help other people and then I could also make a little bit of money. So, that was sort of the gem of what I was doing. I was making my money from a whole lot of different sources, many of which were non-musical at that time.

But I started making reeds for other people and I started to advertise myself as a reed maker and at the time that felt like a big step and a step away from it felt like a step away from my path, right? I had this self-image as a performer and making and selling reads. It was related to the oboe, but it was peripherally related to the oboe.

It felt a little like I kept it on the down low for a while, which it's hard to start a business and run a business if you're afraid to talk about it. But that's where I was for a while there, but really that little read business was the start of everything that I have done since then. I will wrap this long story up neatly by pointing out that that little reed business as I began to get more and more passionate about it, as I began to grow it sort of accidentally, and then really intentionally, I began to realize that there were so many things I was good at,  that there were so many things that I like really loved doing in addition to just playing the oboe. And so I began to fill my life with those things. I was teaching a few students and then I was teaching a lot of students and then I was teaching terrific students and then I was teaching more adults than kids.

And then I realized how much I loved that. I was making reads for hundreds of other people and I started my YouTube channel to talk to them about what I was doing. I found that the communication skills that I was using in teaching in making videos, in marketing, my business, in writing my blog, which eventually I started all of these things together, and made a life that was so compelling and so exciting, and fun to me. So, I'm extremely proud now of my portfolio career, which is made up of orchestral work and solo work and blogging, podcasting, video, making serving groups of oboists, launching online programs, and selling oboe reeds.

KD: I think that's really amazing. When you talk about the journey that you took, the idea of starting making reads for a freelancer, and then you didn't actually realize actually how much you enjoyed actually helping other people. Being able to describe the process, and not only just the process but also the different struggles that you had encountered and how you were able to overcome those obstacles and make a difference. So when you talk about your YouTube channel, how did that come about? Was it something that was intentional? Was it something you wanted to find a way to communicate to larger audiences and things like that?

JI: No, I feel like so many parts of my career, I kind of stumbled upon it. Originally, I started my YouTube channel to solve a problem, And the problem was that I would mail reeds to people and they would email me back and say, “Oh I got the reeds, thanks so much, I like them, but this read is too hard for me, this read is too flat for me, this read is too sharp”. I was pretty good at putting on my non-defensive, friendly, helpful persona and writing an email back out to them.

That was like, “So sorry that you're having trouble with your reads! Let me help you with that, if your reading is too hard, can you be more specific about how it is too hard? Is it too hard in the response? If so you're gonna scrape it here. Is it too hard in the sustain if so you're gonna scrape it here”, and I was pretty good at that. I got kind of tired of typing that email or a version of that email over and over again.

So I made a video, I was like, what to do with your reeds are too hard and then I made another video what to do if your reeds are too flat. And as I was making those videos, I really began to enjoy the process and what I was enjoying, I think was taking the skill I knew intuitively how to do. I was very comfortable making reeds and balancing them and solving reed-making problems. If you put a reed in my hand and a knife in my hand, it feels like the knife just knows what to do. That's what I mean when I say that it's intuitive, but the process of putting words on it and putting frameworks around it so that it was valuable to other people turned out to be really interesting to me because I'm very verbal. I really like talking, writing, and thinking in words.

So I began to really enjoy making those videos and then they sort of took off and what I realized is that there are lots of people looking for information about how to do their oboe reeds because oboists need that. There's never enough oboist on the ground to help everybody with their needs. So everyone's looking for D. I. Y. resources and me just giving information as clearly and as plain-spoken as I could, which is natural to me.

I don't have any like video editing or YouTube tricks, I'm terrible at that stuff, but I can talk about just about anything so the video platform started with me trying to solve a problem. I didn't want to send so many emails, then continued because it really took off and people began to react to the videos and comment on them and ask more questions.

And the other thing that happened when I started that video channel is that it blew my reed business wide open because while I thought I was helping people to solve their own reed-making problems, what I was also doing was positioning myself as an expert and saying, “Yes, I know things about reads and I can help you with them.” And so people would watch the videos and say, “Okay, I see how that works, but also let me try this lady’s reeds.”

And so at some point around in there, I also realized that by making and selling finished reeds, I was only serving people who needed to buy finished reeds, but there were hundreds of thousands of other oboists out there who were making reeds but needed a source for shaped cane, needed a source for reed knives, needed a source for staples and gouged cane and unprocessed. All of the materials in all of the stages that I used them for, I could sell to people.

So the video channel and my actual reed business sort of boomed together. The videos brought attention to me and when people ask me questions, I was able to answer them in the videos and also supply the things that they were asking for through my website and my store.

KD: I think that's amazing, the fact that you took it upon yourself to be able to create something without the expectation of my intention is to do this, but my intention is to help people, and I feel like that's something that's really important that sometimes we lose sight of. Especially as an entrepreneur, as someone who is also a professional musician who's also a teacher who wears many hats to be able to go through this process and actually see the success. Sometimes, you know, in classical music, I feel that we get so tied up learning all the notes and music that we need to do that. Sometimes we lose sight of the big picture. So what type of advice would you give to someone like a young professional who's looking to have a career, whether it be a portfolio career or any career using the skills that you have gotten, you mentioned verbal communication, your joy of writing, and talking to people.

JI: I mean the advice is to look at the things that you are good at, the things that excite you, the things that light you up, and look for the intersection of those things that are superpowers for you and the things that other people need help with. It was very obvious and natural to me as an oboist who made reeds quickly and easily, and that might not be obvious for a musician whose instrument does not require the kind of constant maintenance that stupid oboes do, but for sure everybody has their zones of genius. Whether that is their ability to look at a piece of music and synthesize how it should go. Whether that is their ability to really bring in the historical background of a piece of music and like to bring it to life as they talk about it, lecture about it, teach about it, or help other people with it. Whether that is their ability to use their effortless fast fingers and also help other people to do that same thing,  everybody's got a specialty.

And so if you look both inwardly and outwardly at the things that feel so easy to you, you're surprised that anyone struggles with them. For sure there are people out there who struggle with them and need your help, or your help doing the thing for them. I have friends who are experts at red sheets and bookkeeping and explain how the basic bookkeeping of musicians works. I have friends who are paycheck to paycheck and do not even understand what is happening to the money. And those are two sets of friends who could help each other.

KD: I agree with you 100%. Just because of the fact that earlier, you talked about this idea of validation. I believe that when we think about music, each of us has something really special to offer. We all have something to say just because it's a way of us being able to not only communicate what a composer is saying but able to express ourselves through sound, which I think is something that's phenomenal about music, almost this unexplainable phenomenon. But when we think about what you've mentioned with the idea of superpowers and your story too, were you able to train like in the universities that you've attended or conservatories um that had led you to this path? 

JI: Why no, not even a little bit. I am so grateful for my education at Eastman because I came out as a really good oboe player. I can play the oboe, I can make music, I can express it. The actual playing of the oboe has never been my limitation, I suppose except that I never did win that actual big job, but that is what my university education gave me.

It was not any sense of, “How do you entrepreneur?”, “How do you take control of your own career?”, “How do you lean into your superpowers outside of the concrete?”. This is how you turn a trill, this is how you make a phrase in Baroque music, Baroque work as opposed to a contemporary work. And I mean, I have to say that I came out of Eastman in the mid-nineties and that is a long time ago and I don't think any colleges were thinking about musicians as solo entrepreneurs at that time because the message for everyone was ok, now you're going to go and get your doctorate, so you can do a tenure track university, you can seek a tenure track university position or we are preparing you for the audition circuit where you will go out and then you will win a big job and then you will be an adult, then you will be successful. 

I don't think anybody was doing any better than Eastman at that time, but no, I had no training in any of this, I didn't even have a computer until after I graduated, because it was a long time ago. I sort of had to stumble around and figure everything out for myself, which did accelerate as I leaned into getting help, getting business coaching, and being surrounding myself by people who had similar entrepreneurial mindsets. I would say that I'm sure that colleges are doing better about this now, and also it's not possible for your four years or six years in university to teach you everything that you need, that would be ridiculous. I've had 49 years of learning how to be in the world and how I work best, how to function, how to listen to people, and how to help people. There's no way that a college that is also trying to teach you how to be environmentally sound in your handle overture can teach you everything you need.

So it's always on us to seek out the help that we need and to look for coaches who are going to help and to look for the continuing education that will really serve us, but to answer your question no, I didn't get that from Eastman. 

KD: I think it's great because it takes a lot of courage to try different things and being able to say, “Okay, well let's see if this works, if this works great if not then try something else”, because a lot of the time when we think about education right, we rely so heavily on the information that's given to us?

And it's exactly what you mentioned, it's not possible to do everything in six years. It's a process, that's for sure, but the fact that it takes time, it takes energy. But one of the things that I really appreciated about what you shared with us is the fact that we cannot expect things to be given, that we have to take agency, that we have to be involved because I feel like a lot of people lose sight of that. I have this degree or this training, therefore I'm going to get this no matter what, well it's great, no matter what school you go to, whether you go to a conservatory or whether you go to a university, but being able to say, “Okay, well in the meantime, while I'm trying these different paths, I want to still be able to maintain a career for myself”,  because a lot of time, I think we experienced burnout early on and I don't know about you, but did you have a lot of colleagues that experience that, yourself included?

JI: I mean it's exhausting to be in your 20s and in your 30s and it's exhausting to be any age and trying to build your own career as a musician or entrepreneur, there's always something else, you could be doing, something else you should be doing, right, if you're on the couch watching Netflix, you really could be practicing, you could be emailing contractors, you could be making more reeds, you could be like pounding the pavement, looking for more students, you could be starting your business. There's literally always something else you feel you should be doing and learning how to slow down and take care of myself around all of those messages of hustle that we get has been a long work in progress. 

My book is called “The Happiest Musician”, and I say in it that I am the happiest musician, I know for sure, but it's kind of a low bar also. Many of the people that I know are stressed out and scrambling from gig to gig and feeling a lot of scarcity and anxiety about, “Oh why did that person get hired for this, why did this person get hired for this, why am I not making finals?”. And those things like, “Why is this so hard?”. And I feel like all of the work that I have put in and all of the various things that I have built in my portfolio career have enabled me to finally say, “Okay, I've done enough for today and I don't have to keep every one of these pots at a full boil all the time, maybe today is a day where I'm focused on learning my music from my next recital,  from my next orchestra concert for my next whatever.” 

Maybe the next day is when I'm going to write some content and maybe the next day is when I'm going to get on Zoom and serve a whole bunch of clients. There’s finding ways to intentionally slow down and enjoying the life that you are building for yourself is a tremendously valuable skill.

KD: And I think that's something that's really important for people to know, right? Because, when we think about learning music by Francais or all those composers or even the basic repertoire, one needs to have that foundation. I appreciate your honesty, in regard to this journey, but I think it also goes into the idea of how we define success with what you mentioned earlier. It's like, okay, well, you go this path, you win this job, and you're officially an adult, but it's not always the same for everyone. You know, like some people just want to record or some people just wanna be able to teach in communities or different communities. Now, that said throughout your individual progress, how were you able to refine that definition for yourself and what would you recommend for others?

JI: I would say that one of the things I feel strongly about as I've been going through my life and building out various aspects of this, I'll try anything once and then I just sort of kept with very little intention at first,  leaning towards the things I was enjoying the most and leaning away from the things that I was enjoying the least.

I got out of that ticket-selling job just as fast as I could, and out of the bagel-selling job even faster. I said yes to every possible playing opportunity until that began to infringe upon the time that I wanted to spend paying attention to my business, paying attention to my students, and paying attention to my clients, at which point I began to lean away from those things.

I have tried numerous projects that I would get off the ground and realize that I was not enjoying doing them, so I let them go back to the ground.  I started a chamber music series back in, I don't know, 2013, maybe 2012, and I ran it for three years and we had a blast. We were like performing four or five concerts a year.

I didn't perform on everyone, but I performed on most of them and I got to speak on most of them, which was a joy for me and we were presenting new music by new composers, by living composers. We were presenting really interesting things. We were always talking to the audience like it was really engaging and fun and we were partnering with various nonprofits.

We did all sorts of stuff and I really enjoyed the energetic lift of getting that off the ground. I really enjoyed talking to the nonprofits and getting to know what they were up to and serving the people in my local community and working with the musicians. When we got to the end of the third year, I was supposed to program 1/4 season and begin to work on partnerships and begin to raise some money, I was like, ”Not too hard. I'm too tired, I don't like this”, and there are ways that I could have done it better. On my podcast. I've talked to a million people who have started ensembles and done amazing things and had their 501C3 status in place on a board in six months, and that was just not me.

That was not the way I approached that project. So, I let it go after that and I have no regrets about letting it go because it just wasn't really working for me or fulfilling me the way I wanted to be fulfilled. But I continue to find that as I lean towards the things that like really excite me and sort of feed into my sense of flow,  the more I lean towards the things that delight me, the more successful I feel.

And I think your original question was something about claiming success for myself and it took a long time because I've been indoctrinated for so long into believing that I was only going to have arrived if I was the principal oboist in a big five orchestra, which I am not. Eventually,  I looked around and I was like, “Well look at me, I'm the Principal of Post into other orchestras and I have all of these fantastic students and I have this read business”, and “We own our own house and we own our cars, and this isn't successful, what is?”. I'm so happy in my day-to-day life. I have brought into my life the things that I love the most to do. And I could point this out to that in that big orchestra job where in the one I don't have in which I'm being paid to show up eight services a week and play Beethoven symphonies and play the solos, they're probably not also paying me to create community groups of the local oboist, they're probably not also paying me to write a book. They're probably not also paying me for the energy that I get to put into my podcast, my video channel, and all of the other things, those aren't part of that one job that I had imagined that I wanted. And yet I can't imagine my life without doing all of those wonderful things. And the fact that I have agency in my career, the fact that I have a portfolio career that I've created for myself means that I get to choose that I get to lean into exciting projects that I'm thrilled to do, and I get to kind of lean away. I get to stop doing the things that I don't want to do anymore, and I don't think that is the case in the big orchestra.

KD: I think that's really great in regards to that perspective. Don't get me wrong, to have positions like this, to compete with so many people, each person is like really at a high level and there's nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, it's like with what you mentioned, being able to put things in perspective, being thankful for the things that we do have, being able to have the flexibility to be able to grow in different ways. For example, nowadays with digital media with social media with everything that's available at our fingertips, we have the flexibility to build passive ways of income that you wouldn't have been able to maybe 10 or 15 years ago.

And I think this is something that I think you touched on something here that's really important. The fact when we think about perspective when we think about the things that we're doing, a lot of time people think, “Oh, I should be doing this, I should be doing that, of course, we should be doing all the things that we should do to become better, but also to being able to say, “I'm thankful to be here, I'm thankful for the things that I have.” I think that's really important. Congratulations on being able to achieve those things now with what we have in regards to technology and your views on technology, your views in the work that you do with adult amateurs, it would be really great to hear more about that.

JI: So the thing that I discovered at a certain point is that geography is a problem for oboists. There are very few in any given town, and often you'll find yourself, if you are a person who is trying to lean into your own artistry as an adult, you may find that it's hard to find support for your playing in your local community. Maybe there's a professional orchestra in your town and maybe those pros are taking students, but maybe they are not, maybe they're focused on the up-and-coming university kids, the promising high school students, or maybe they are just not working with adults. That has been the experience for some of my clients. Maybe there are other people in your demographic in town, but you're competing with them for local opportunities. And it feels weird and uncomfortable.

But the thing that we have now that we did not have even 10 years ago is Zoom, and on Zoom, you can put people in a room together who are not in competition with each other in any way. The person who is living in Washington State is not a contender for that local gig in Toledo Ohio. My point here is among the great things about working with groups on Zoom is that you can talk about a concept and explain it and you can even be coaching somebody live and everybody else behind their mute buttons can be trying out the concept, fiddling around on their instruments, going, “Oh that does work for me”, and you could never do that in a live master class situation. A great thing about group work with adults is that adults have the ability to listen to a conversation and take what they need from it, even if that conversation is directed at another person or at a skill that they thought they had.

My point is that you can bring together people who are at different ability levels, like different actual levels of oboe ability, but because they are all at the same developmental age, they are all grown-ups, they can support each other, and they can be friends with each other. They can all benefit from a conversation around articulation, a conversation around “How we think about the reed that we need for ourselves and then how do we make it.” 

I feel like I'm rambling a little bit, I am so bought into group work on Zoom because I love the ability that everybody in the room can contribute to the conversation and can take what they need from the conversation, and can be friends at the same time.

KD: It takes a really special person to be able to promote and encourage those types of things because sometimes like depending on the situation, whether you're with kids or with high school students or even with adults, depending on who the teacher is, the facilitator of the learning experience, it can affect how people feel around one another.

And I think that's really great that you've been able to use technology to your advantage and being able to reach out to different communities and not just limiting it to where you live, but being able to say, “Okay, if I want to reach out to this person in this part of the world”,  that you have the capacity to do so, and I feel like that's something with the conversations that I've had with like different artists, different administrators, different business owners. I feel like the biggest thing from what I'm gathering from you is this idea of community and this idea of belonging and feeling like you're not alone because a lot of time we feel like we're in this journey alone, we feel like, “Oh my gosh, there's so much to do, but at the same time not the only ones thinking that. There are other people who want to get back into the instrument, who want to be able to get back into music and be able to develop an appreciation for that. So with that, in your book, you mentioned those things and what creates happiness and I feel like that's such a great concept and that's something that I feel like our audience needs to know more about what makes you happy, what turns you on whether they're young professionals or older amateurs that you've mentioned, do you feel like the adult amateur musician is overlooked most of the time?

JI: Oh, I absolutely do. I look at the advertisements that just sort of come in through my inbox over and over again. I see solicitations for, “Here's a double reed over here, here's a double reed over there, here's a Texas Music Educators Association event over here”,  and it seems like it's always aimed at the young people masterclass series competitions like everything that I see appears to be designed for young musicians. Your local symphony Orchestra almost certainly has an education and outreach arm and for sure they're doing a concert that is special for third graders, where all the third graders get bussed into the symphony play some morning and all the musicians groggily roll in drinking their coffee or you are sent out into the schools to educate children, “Here is an oboe, everybody say oboe”, but we don't have comparable programs in for the local community orchestra, for the local community band, for the people who are trying to continue to make music and make beauty in the world as adults but are not professionals. I played a job last summer, it was like an outdoor concert out on a beach with an orchestra and I'm like, “Okay, because ghosts don't get enthusiastic about playing on a beach,” that's not fun. And the concert featured a man and a woman who had created all of their own arrangements all by themselves and were singing and playing the piano and they had themed it around. It doesn't matter. They're singing and playing the piano. They had created all of their own arrangements. They were wildly excited to do this concert and they were not professionals, I don't believe. 

As we dragged ourselves through this rehearsal and listened to the singers who were kind of pitchy and played these arrangements, which were a little heavy-handed, I had some feelings about what I was doing here on this beach doing this stupid thing. We got to the concert that night and I really opened my eyes because these two performers were over the moon to be actually singing and performing their arrangements in front of an actual audience. They had like 16 costume changes over the course of the thing. They were grinning ear to ear. The audience was enthusiastic because like it doesn't actually have to be great to be a fun time out on the beach listening to a concert of familiar American standards and I just feel like the happiness level in the world, the net happiness level increased dramatically because these two people had created a thing and gotten it off the ground and we're getting to do it with a real orchestra. It was like a show tune, karaoke with a real orchestra for people who were enjoying it. It made me so happy to see these people leaning into their artistry, getting a project that they had been working on and working on off the ground, making music publicly and proudly. 

In the afternoon rehearsal, I'm just genuinely enjoying the concert and enjoying seeing the joy on their faces and the enjoyment of the audience, and enjoyed it myself. My point here is that the more humans get to actually work at that part, there is so much joy in making music for all of us, professionals and amateurs alike I think is working on something that is always just a little bit beyond us, right? We can never actually achieve the standard of perfection that we want. There's always another level of knowledge and growth and improvement that is possible and it is that work that is so interesting and engaging and brings us into our flow state so that if that is the joy of it, I want more people to have that joy. I feel like the more humans are really supported in developing that for themselves, and the more people are able to take the time, make the time, and commit to their own pursuits, the happier the world is overall.

KD: And I think that's something that's really beautiful because a lot of time when we go to,  these programs, we're training, we're really being critical because we want to be able to produce the best music that we can, but sometimes it's not even just about that, it's about being able to experience physical joy and I feel like sometimes we lose sight of that.

I know sometimes I catch myself saying, “Okay, Kristine”, perspective, right? Being able to say, it's not just about you,  it's about being able to share with people and taking part in that and I thank you, Jennet, for the fact that you recognize it, I didn't really love myself at that moment, during the rehearsal, but being able to see amateurs, adult amateurs being able to experience pure joy from something that they work towards, because when it boils down to it, whether you're a beginner, amateur, intermediate, whatever level, professional musician, we're all working towards this goal of becoming better musicians, and I feel by having that mentality, that can actually help people become happier in general. 

JI: I think so, the fun is the work and then the payoff for the work is getting to have the performance, the experience of the swoosh of sound that like has you whether that's orchestral, whether that's you out in the world, soloing, whether that's singing in the shower, being proud of how it sounds, that's the payoff for the work.

KD: For sure, so one last question that I have. There are a lot of young people, young professionals, whether they're still in college, whether they just graduated with their undergrad or their masters or their doctorate. What type of advice, I know we talked about the agency before, but what type of advice would you tell them in regards to becoming more educated in building careers that are meaningful for them, not the careers that are told by them, like, “Okay if you do this then you're successful. If you do that, you're successful”

JI: I mean I feel like it has to start with the dream and with your own internal clock of what do you actually want to do, what feels important to you in the world, what ideas light you up, what activities light you up. For sure, you're just out of your doctorate, you're just out of your master's, you're gonna be hustling and you're gonna be working and all of the jobs that you are doing are not going to light you up. It is likely that your first few jobs are survival jobs that are not sparking joy for you, but you are allowed to imagine the bigger, better life that you actually want and you are allowed to take steps towards it.  I guess my big message might be that as you are trying to imagine the version of your creative career and the one wild and precious life that you want, you don't have to know every step of the way before you start. It's enough to have the vision and see a first step because the first step will lead to a second step. Action begets action, it's okay to try things and it's okay to try things and not win at them the first time because then you've learned.

KD: This is really great advice and this idea of manifesting, I think it's also really important in being able to maintain that vision to hold onto the dream and to be able to put oneself out there as much as they can, that type of thing.

I think we're gonna leave it on that note. Thank you for joining us today and for sharing your experience and thoughts with us. We look forward to seeing the amazing things that you continue to do for your students and classical music.

JI: Thank you so much, Kristine. This was such a pleasure.