Ep 11: Margaret Gonzalez

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity. For the complete interview, you can access here.

​Kristine Dizon: Hello, my name is Kristine Dizon, and I'm the CEO and founder of the Modern Artist Project. Today, I'm with Margaret Gonzalez, a musician and educator from Venezuela. The founder of El Sistema, maestro Jose Antonio Abreu, believes in the transformative power of music and in making positive and lasting changes in the lives of our children.

Continuing the legacy of the founder, Margaret uses music as a vehicle for social change, traveling locally and internationally to share her passion and vision with other Sistema-inspired programs. She is currently the founder and artistic director of Music Mission San Francisco. Thank you, Margaret, for joining us today.

Margaret Gonzales: Thank you for having me. 

KD: So, I know I talked about what you do currently, but could you tell us a little bit more about your background, you know, coming from Venezuela to the United States?

MG: Absolutely. Well, I came to the USA in 2008 to pursue my degree in viola performance with a minor in violin and piano. This was all thanks to the knowledge and activities that I obtained back in Venezuela. In 2000, I received a scholarship, almost a full scholarship, to study at the university. I strongly believe that without that, it would have been impossible to pursue a degree here in America.

So, in 2008, I pursued my degree and graduated in 2012 and after that, in Virginia, I moved in 2015, and 2014 to California and decided to create Music Mission San Francisco with the idea to provide free music education to those in need. We have a very diverse community here of Latinos immigrants coming from Guatemala, Mexico, Salvador, Honduras, with very very low income. The children of these families do not have any contact or resources to allow them to have music education in their schools. So, there's a district here called Mission, which is well known for its diversity of races and cultures. So, there, in my neighborhood I decided to open Music Mission San Francisco in 2015. Since then, it has been a wonderful journey where today, we have around 50 students, and we just start having our lessons or teaching in person again which is very exciting after two and a half years because of the pandemic. Unfortunately, we lost many students because of that. So now, we are going strong again in person, and wonderful things are happening for our students, a lot of opportunities for the students and for the parents as well. We are very very grateful to be where we are right now.

KD: That's amazing, in regards to hearing about the journey of your organization and how you know, despite encountering the pandemic, you guys were able to come back to in-person instruction and revitalize the culture in your community for the time being. Now, what I want to know is what inspired you. I know you were very much influenced by El Sistema, and why did you feel like you wanted to create your organization with Music Mission?

MG: Well, I think that when something impacts you so much since you were little, I think you have the feeling of wanting to give back to the community or to the family or something, you know? So, since El Sistema, it changed my life, you know, since I was little, I started Sistema when I was seven years old. And you know, it was my family, it wasI had my home, and then I had my older home, you know, where I felt safe, where I felt heard, where I felt like I had a voice with my own instrument. So I wanted to recreate that. I wanted to also give back to the community and give the opportunity to those kids in the Mission District. I think that that's the thing that inspired me the most. When I moved here to San Francisco, different from where I used to live before, Virginia, close to Washington D.C., I felt the need of having this program in this community.

I feel like parents and the children of these parents were having a lack of contact with music, a lack of contact of having their own voice. They feel like, "I have a voice. I want to, for example, the children, I want  the community to hear me. I want to see, I want the community to see me." So that's why I got inspired with the Mission District and inspired by the feeling of, "I have to give back what once was given back to me when I was little," and it certainly transformed my life. I strongly believe that I wouldn't be where I am if it weren't for El Sistema, if it wasn't for the opportunity of free music education with really really high standards, like what it was, El Sistema back in Venezuela. You know, we used to have orchestra rehearsals, chamber music. We used to have master classes with really well-known musicians around the world. Here's tours around the world representing Venezuela. All that gave me a sense of value that I couldn't replace with something else. You know, I was just like, "Wow, all this, I can do it," learning to play an instrument. So that's why I wanted to recreate. And that's why I wanted to give back to the community that perhaps they felt that they didn't have a voice because they came here illegal, immigrants with really really low opportunities. So yes, that's why I wanted to do that.

KD: Wow, I mean, this is, this is really great. I mean, there's so much that you've just said. You know, the idea of being seen, right? The idea of feeling that you and I feel like that when we think about those aspects in music education or even just arts education, right? You want to be able to have those opportunities, you know, because sometimes in our world, we feel invisible, you know, and I think that's really powerful, I feel.. So, in regards to that, how does Music Mission San Francisco embody those principles that you discuss?

MG: Well, before we created Music Mission San Francisco, we kind of studied with data. We went to the music schools in the neighborhood. We talked to the students, we talked to the teachers, we talked to the parents. We wanted to feel connected to them, and we wanted them to feel connected to us. You know, we are here to hear you, we want to hear what you need. So, based on that information, we knew that the schools were not providing music education. We knew that parents didn't have any money to afford music education because it's quite an ability here in the USA. It's expensive. Well, I know you say, I believe in any part of the world. You know, it's a very unique subject when we talk about education having a price. You know, I think with anything. So, we talked to the teachers of the district, and we also understood what they were looking for in regards to changes in the behavior of students. We know that coming from another country from a young age, like these children not being able to speak Spanish, English, sorry, makes it even a little bit more difficult for them to integrate into society.

So, we collected all these factors, and we came up with, well, we need to do something. We need to give them something that they feel identified with and where they feel integrated with the rest. You know, so what's more amazing than feeling of integration and music, you know, and an orchestra. So, we made some calls, we started writing grants for collecting instruments, we started looking at space. We went to the schools and did recruitment. I went myself and played for the students, and talked to the parents in Spanish so they feel a little bit more connected, more close.

So, once we had all the pieces together, all the puzzle together, we went ahead, not knowing what was going to happen because it was very scary at the beginning. You have this ego, like, oh my God, great, this and it's gonna be amazing. But, you know, there's so much to think about. There's so much to organize. There's so much happening. It's not as easy as just creating something. You know, there is government, there is money involved, that is, um, you know, projects with like a mindset like, okay, this is a five years team. What are we gonna do after the fifth, the five years, etcetera?

How can we provide more opportunities with them? What can we do in the future? So, but you know, it all worked out beautifully today. I mean, the families, they feel like they belong somewhere. At least we made their life a little bit easier. Every time that they come to the program, they are so happy. The kids are so happy. Most of our students are Latinos, so 90% of them speak Spanish.

When I go to the program and just to make sure everything's okay, like talk to the teachers, you know, I talked to the parents every once in about every two weeks. We do a survey to the parents, to the students. We want to hear their concerns. We want to hear what they need and help them in any way, any possible way that we can. So yeah, I mean, it came up with a lot of thoughts and a lot of fears, but the result is beautiful.

KD: Wow. Um, this is, I mean, this is really great because I think, you know, by sharing your story of the process, hopefully, it will make people less afraid of being able to pursue projects like this because, for example, you didn't know what was going to happen, but you gathered the information that you needed to make it happen.

So in regards to the different aspects of your organization, what is the most challenging part of being able to run Music Mission San Francisco? Because you mentioned the money, you mentioned the government, you mentioned, I mean, you mentioned that there are all these different factors.

MG: The most challenging? What is it? It depends. Um, it has, uh, many compartments, many departments like, okay, this and this and that. I think the most challenging is not to convince people, but for example, to make an understanding or vision and prove to them like, you know, this is changing the life of our students. So when we go and, you know, ask for grants or partnership to certain banks, I think that's the most challenging part, like to make them see how we're changing the lives of these children and their families.

Um, of course, money-wise. Yes. Um, as a nonprofit organization, you always have to be constantly looking for money constantly. Like, um, you cannot be thinking at one year, you have to think like many years have money for many, many years because we want to make sure that these kids or students had the opportunity of being in this program for so many years until they, you know, they go to college.

Um, but yes, I think the most difficult, challenging it's, they making people understand our vision and see how it's really affecting the lives of our students. And other than that, I'm very clear with, you know, when I was in the system in Venezuela, it was very different. It was from three or 1 something, 3, 2 or 2 - six p.m. Okay, like four hours, you tell one. I mean, you tell, I don't know the mayor or some of the parents, you tell them, I want to keep your kids for four hours. Like, you know, it's um, it's a different idea here. It's like, you cannot keep my kids for four hours. It has to do with money, it has to do with this. Um, so in those regards, sometimes like when we have a concert and we have to get really, really well prepared, I would like to keep my kids the student life for longer, but that's me being greedy. That's me because when I was in Venezuela, you know, we used to have seminars from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. With, you know, it's another mindset in South America perhaps here, you have to go very much by the rules, you know, you cannot do this, you cannot do that. So for me, even though I have been living here since 2008, it's still every day something new for me. It's like, oh, but I cannot do that here in your failure, right? That's another challenging part. But for me, as a nonprofit organization, I think the most challenging part is to make other people believe what you believe and for them to see the changes. I think that's the most challenging part.

KD: Yes, and I agree with you. I mean, in regards to the way the system works, and I mean, I lived in Europe for a very long time, and I sometimes have to remind myself, okay, I'm not in Europe, it works differently here, or in the United States, it works differently. So I completely understand. It's like, you know, if you have an opportunity to be able to learn, it's like, okay, great, take my child, right? You know, but it's also, you know, with these different ways of values, culture, I mean, there's just so much that goes into it. I think that's amazing that you had rehearsals with Gustavo Dudamel from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. That's insane.

MG: Yes, yes, yes, yes. But you know, it sounds insane. Anybody in their right mindset, they will say, like, 'That's child abuse.' Explosion, explosion. I don't know, something. But you know, we enjoy it so much. And I speak for myself and my peers, like my friends back in the orchestra. It wasn't even for us like, 'Oh my God, this is so many hours. Like, how can they do this to us from Monday to Sunday?' I know for us, it was like, 'Yes, we have said yes and want to be performing for the President of Argentina or something like that. We were just so excited. And we have teachers who were an inspiration for us. Like just the fact that we have sectionals with them, master classes with them, it's just like it was such a joy. We never thought like, 'Oh my God, I can't believe that I'm here from 9 to 9 being. And then when we used to have the rehearsal in the afternoon, when my struggle came and listened to the rehearsal for us, it was like, 'Oh my struggle is here, we better know ourselves. Like, we have to play perfect because he was very particular about everything.' So it was just such a joy really. It never felt overwhelming. It was just because it was family, it was home, it was friends, it was sisters, brothers, you know, it was just very um, it was a comfort song for us.

KD: No. I mean, that's so beautiful to be able to hear that, you know. The fact that music is my second home, right? And you think about the home with your family and then you think about your other family. So it's just, I mean, you know, and it's crazy because not a lot of people have, you know, have that. And I think it's great that you, with Music Mission San Francisco, that you're giving back now, to add on to my question. Because in the United States, we encounter a lot of problems with music education programs in the schools. Nowadays, there are so many different cuts that are being made that make it so that music isn't really accessible early on. So a majority of students, I believe, and I can't speak for one particular state, but start music at age 10, age 11, age 12, depending on the area that they live in. Now, Margaret, do you have any suggestions or ideas of how we could make music education more relevant for these communities?

MG: Well, I think all of us who are involved in certain immigrant music, just in a way, you know, a teacher, performer, speaker. Um, I think we have to really make society understand how light or how music can change your life. You know, I think either way with the system of music education programs, they come with data where they say like, you know, this kid could have been exposed to, let's say, drugs or this or that. But because this program looked at, he had good grades, he has this, there is data where you see the improvement and we show that if we show what is possible with music and how it changed the community here in the brain or like the behavior, if we prove, not prove that, but we show the benefits, you know, I think society will be more aware of how it can change your life. Um, I think we all have a voice. I have a voice. You have a voice. All the people that have a certain connection with music, they have a voice. And we have to make sure that we let other people understand the benefits of being involved with music. And it doesn't have to be for the long term. Like I'm not saying like, oh my God, you have to be a performer for the rest of your life. But you know, we all know the amount of benefits for your brain that playing an instrument gives you. Well, we know like I think now it's now we have to also switch how it changes in the society in the community when you play an instrument in your home. The value that you feel like, for example, performing in front of other audiences. I think that we have to switch to that for people to understand how valuable this gift is called music."

KD: I agree with you 200%. I agree with you so much on so many levels. Because when we think about the skills, it's not just about how well you play or how well you play, right? But also, the idea of patience, I think the idea of discipline of being able to organize your thoughts. You know, like being able to set up schedules and planning, you know, like actually the interpersonal skills to communicate, saying, 'Well, that was not great. How can I be better?' Because for a long time I know like in other fields, we in other artistic fields, we also learn those things too. But you know, with music, it's exactly with what you said. I don't have to speak the same language, a spoken language as you. But we can still play music together.

MG: Hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, when you have the setup of the orchestra, you understand that they all have their individual voices, but they all need each other to have this beautiful result. You know, so I wish it was like that outside. And you know, in some cases, like we understand, like we all have a voice and we all are important in order to make it work. And that's why we try to teach our kids in the setup of the orchestra when they come together and play together in the orchestra, you know, we tell them like, 'you are important, even though you have a rest still, you are super important. You do, you have a sign and resign and still music, but then the viola is important also, and then you have a melody together, you have to listen to each other, you have to help each other to create this beautiful harmony.' So they, at an early age, they understand that, 'oh wait, I have to help each other, we have to listen to each other, we have to come together and help, you know, in order to create, to have the result of this beautiful piece.' And yeah, no worries, no worries.

KD: Uh, you know, and what one of the things that I wanted to ask you actually is, do you know, or I mean if you know, whether or not universities or colleges or conservatories in the United States are teaching these things to young people or performers in regards to being able to do this type of community work? I mean, don't get me wrong, okay, like I know sometimes like community work gets a bad rap, right? Like saying, 'oh, I'm not going to do it for free,' right type of thing. But being actually able to teach people, you know, you can be a great musician, but our musician art will die if you cannot share that with people.

MG: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, in regards to universities or any institution, I'm sure there are programs that they have in order to give back to the community. We are right now the Music Mission of San Francisco in the process of partnering with the San Francisco Conservatory. We have a beautiful project coming up. Their students are going to come to our program to teach our students, give them master classes, and give them performances, guidance through the journey of learning their instrument with really high quality. So I know that, I mean, we are creating this with the San Francisco Conservatory and I'm sure other, I know Play on Philly in Philadelphia, they have this partnership with Curtis Institute and the orchestra also where they have, you know, where the teachers come to the program, they teach the students, they give performances in the community together, the students of Curtis and the students of Play on Philly.

So, um, and to the universities, and I'm not very aware of those like I haven't, myself, I haven't really been contacted with someone that gave me information about programs inside the University or College where they can give back to the community with the music program, but I know for a fact that San Francisco Conservatory, you know, we are trying to create more ways to expand, um, can I that knowledge to the community, what we're doing with Music Mission San Francisco and the next step that can happen after Music Mission San Francisco, which is, you know, in this case, uh, the San Francisco Conservatory, which is a really, really high standards code of music here in the United States.

KD: I think that's really great and you know, by having those types of partnerships actually will make it so it's not just, you know, a one-way street, right? We're okay, well, we're giving classes to kids, I hope they enjoy it, right, but it's also a matter of being able to show the students at that, you know, institution, in this case, the San Francisco Conservatory, music that, you know, there is value that we, this is work that we have to do, that we need to be doing for our communities because a lot of the time, you know, in schools they teach you okay, you must be great at your instrument, you must be doing this, you must be doing that. But in order to have those things to be able to share those things with people, we have to have community, I think.

MG: Yes, yes, I completely agree.

KG: So, in regards to the work that you do, in regards to your students, and how do you feel that digital media, or, you know, when we think about the digital age, has impacted music education?

MG: Well, since we had the beginning of the planet, I will never think about like digital, how we can create this through the computer, this after the pandemic. So, it was quite eye-opening because during the pandemic, we started teaching online, and for me, it was, "Oh my God, I want to see my kids." This is because I'm very attached to the students in the program. But, you know, through the pandemic, we learned like, wait, we're going to do this online, but how can we give them more? Because it's very hard, learning online, being apart from their friends. It's just not the same, but we can search for ways to like how can we make this better or how can we give them something more. So, we were in contact with other systems programs around the United States. We created music festivals online where they get to perform for other kids from Pennsylvania, from Washington D.C., from Seattle, from Colorado. So, that was very neat that for my students and for all the students, that was like, "What? Where you live in Colorado, you know, the students will come out like, 'Hey, you have no--'" So, it was very cool to see their faces to see how proud they felt outside because, you know, "I'm going to play how I play my gym at your scalp," and they were super happy and anything. It was very neat. We had a kind of music festival for three days in a row, everyday the same time. So, you know, we came up with like, okay, warm-up exercise that I mean, it was like 12 hours every day, yeah, two hours, you know, warm-up exercise. We tell the students to stand up, stretch, okay, now everybody warm up with the instrument, let's play the scale.

Okay, now everybody who would like to play this, we will play certain kinds of music for them. I wasn't only classical, you know, I remember this teacher, he's amazing, I forgot his name, he would play Lauryn Hill for a student. I was like, "Yes, I love it." So, we kind of integrate that even though they were so apart, they still were so close to each other, you know, in that kind of setup of the festival. So, I think that was an eye-opener for me. I was like, "Wow, wait, we can do this, and it's so much easier," you know, than going traveling to Colorado or Seattle or this. So, that was very neat. I was like, "Oh, okay, we can create this, we can bring all the students together from around us to put a piece together to compose to write down some, you know, composition that they came out of somewhere, you know, it was it was very cool." It was very cool. So, for me, that was like, oh, switch, like how can I see the positive things about this, for example, pandemic and realize now that wow, technology brought us together something that will never, you know, I will never see like that related to music when it comes about music, but it was pretty neat, and now, you know, we still like, think talk about like, "Okay, what we're going to do next year to connect these students online?" 

Um, we also like Music mission San Francisco, we give the performances online. Um, we also like music Mission San Francisco. We give performances online. Like we had certain blues bands from the San Francisco Conservatory. Just the Justice Department, we talked to them to give performances for the students to perform for our students. So yeah, we thought about what are the ways that we can give to our students that, you know, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do it like in prison. So that was very neat. I like that. So definitely, technology brought us together, I would say even more, you know, connecting all the students from around us. And that was pretty--"

KD: No, that's amazing. And I think, you know, when we are in situations that are a bit difficult, right, with the pandemic, I feel like, in a sense, it forces us to be more creative than we ever have been before, because the thing is, if you're passionate about something, no matter whether it's like music, about I don't know, books, hamburgers, right, pizza, right, whether you're passionate, it could be about anything, you're always gonna find a way to make it work. And I think it's really a beautiful way of seeing how your organization adapted to something that could have been very, very difficult, that could have set you guys back. You guys seem to be really just, you know, to push through it, and I, um, bravo, you know, I'm I am so amazed to be able to hear those things. Now when we talk about.

MG: Things that you say, I'm sorry, go ahead.

KD: No, no, it's okay. After you.

MG: You say the keyword, "adapt." I think that's the key word for everything. We have to adapt to situations. You know, we are constantly changing everything, everything. So when you say the key word, we just have to adapt. Like we have to make it work. You know, like somehow, when we have this, you're like, "Okay, I have this, how can I make it work?" I just adapt to the situation and make the best of it. So I really like the word, that word that you say.

KD: Thank you. I didn't make it. You know, I'm glad that you like it because the thing is, a lot of times, you know, and this is something that I've seen with people who are not able to adapt, and then, you know, there's a gray cloud and it seems like music is not possible anymore. But the thing is, what's beautiful is that you guys made it work, and that's something that's really, really great to hear. Now, in regards to young professionals who want to get into this type of project building, you know, entrepreneur, because you are an entrepreneur in regards to the work that you've done, you took risks. You, you know, you went out, you asked people, you know, in business, we would say customers, but you asked families, right? The people that you're serving, the people that you want to serve. So you are an entrepreneur. Now, that said, the question that I have for you is what advice would you give to someone who wants to take this path in regards to serving communities through music?

MG: Mm, I will say don't take "no" as an answer. I would say that. Um, I speak for myself because it was difficult. I am, I don't mean to sound pitiful, but for me, it was difficult because first of all, I always say you were my colleague with the global leadership program together. So for me, it was always the English barrier, like, "Oh my gosh, my English is not good." So I was like, very afraid to, or not afraid, but like, how am I going to explain my vision and my vision? How can I convince people that this is going to work? So I was very self-conscious about that, about my English. And also, you know, when you go to the banks and like, you have this. I don't know Director Z also like 100 years working with the banks. Are, um, you know, understanding the finance work in a different way than I do, of course. And you feel very, um, how to say the word? I don't want - I was kinda scared like, 'Oh my god,' you know? Also being a woman in this world, like leadership of men, group by men in a good way. It's not about, like, 'Oh my god, why they're like living this like,' but you feel a little bit, you know? 'Oh my god, they're gonna say, oh my god, what am I doing here?'

But, you know, I took a lot of no. I mean, I heard a lot of no. 'This is not gonna work, we don't want to spend money on this.' Um, you know, we heard about this before, but... and then you just don't take the no as an answer. You just go and, you know, prove to them, like, 'No, this is gonna work, you know, and I want to show you why,' no matter if you're in my case, like if your English is not very good, or, you know, if you are like, um, if you're so because I hear a lot, a lot as your so, you don't know what you're talking about. So I was like, 'Yeah, I know, but like, let me prove to you that I know, let me show you what I can do.' So I would say definitely, definitely, definitely do not take no as an answer and go for it and let them feel the fire that you have inside.

Because when you really, really, really want to do something, you have this fire inside. Like, don't let them take that fire away, like, don't let them put water the fire go away and not have them and show them and go, and if you didn't work with this person, go to the next person, or go to the next one, and you know when one door closes, another one will open, even better. So that's what I learned. Like, don't give up, just don't, like, just go forward and let that fire that you have, you for what your project is or what your idea, what your vision, your vision and let the other be inspired by you because when you believe in what you can do, the other people will believe it too.

KD: I think this is amazing advice, and I think this is advice that sometimes it's difficult, right? Because to really go for something and to actually not just believe in what your project is, but believing in yourself, and it sounds like you definitely made it happen no matter what. And, you know, I'm so happy to call you, you know, a friend, in the fact that you have that fire and no matter what, you were like, 'I'm just going for it,' you know, type of thing. So I'm not. Um, so I think that was, you know, something very important, and we're going to leave on that note, Margaret. Thank you for joining us today and for sharing your experience and thoughts with us. We look forward to seeing the amazing things that you do for our community.

MG: Thank you for having me, Kristine. It's such a pleasure talking to you. I was told you this, thank you for bringing awareness of what other people are doing in their communities, uh, impacting people. Uh it's such an amazing work what you're doing right now. So I am the one who feels honored to be here.