EP 39: Theodora Nestorova

Kristine Dizon: Hello, my name is Kristine Dizon and I'm the CEO and founder of The Modern Artist Project. Today, I'm with Theodora Nestorova, a Bulgarian-British-American soprano researcher and teacher who has received praise for her exceptional talent and unique style. She recently published an article on focal vibrato as the first author in the Journal of the Voice.  ​

Notably, she won the Best Poster Award at the National Association of Teachers of Singing from 2022 Conference and the Pan American Vocology Association which awarded her the Best Student Presentation in 2020 as a respected scholar. She has presented various voice science studies at prestigious conferences and events. Apart from her scholarly achievements, she is passionate about cross-disciplinary collaborations and promoting multicultural connections in music and beyond. She actively teaches voice and diction, particularly Slavic languages in her private studio and serves as a lecturer and instructor at Framingham State University. Recognized for her potential as an art change maker. She was nominated to represent McGill University in the Global Leaders Institute of Innovation Executive cohort where she is currently pursuing an MBA in arts innovation. She won first place in the American Prize in Vocal Performance (Art Song) from 2018 to 2019 and has performed as a soloist in various premieres and recordings. She has collaborated with renowned artisan ensembles such as the Wladigeroff Brothers, Fermata Chamber Soloist, and Pizzicanto Soprano-Cello. Her musical endeavors have taken her to esteemed menus and festivals worldwide. So, thank you, Theodora, for joining us today.

Theodora Nestorova: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I'm excited to be on the podcast, which we were just talking about how I personally find it very important. And I'm grateful to be able to be here and talk about these important topics.

KD: So I know I've read a lot about your impressive background, with all of the things that you have done as a singer, not only as a singer but also a researcher and who also does a variety of other things. Could you actually tell us a little bit more about what led you to this journey?

TN: Sure. So for me, the journey of having a variety of or multi-hyphenated mosaic, whatever you would like to call it, career has always been that way, from my background. So, I am grateful to have a multi-hyphenated multinational, like background as well, culturally. And that I think really parallels my career. And when I started off, that was something, as a singer, taking voice lessons, singing in choir, singing different productions, going the classical route, but still, experimenting with other genres and styles. 

And those things, my curiosity not only about the singing and the performance side of things but also about the biomechanics and how it works. And the many questions I always had in my lessons. And curiosity led me to the scientific and research sphere, and my multinational background led me to look into fellowships that are cross-cultural international, like the Fulbright. And that led me through my schooling, my bachelor's degree at Oberlin to the Fulbright in Vienna, back to my master's in vocal pedagogy to kind of apply all of this knowledge both performance and scientific into kind of a trade, a craft of teaching there. And now I'm at McGill University, a candidate and PhD in interdisciplinary music studies and applied performance sciences.

I see it as a combination of bringing all those three things together and bringing my background kind of leading it through this winding path as it is for all of us. But for me, I've kind of let it wind and not really siloed it ever, just let it see where each of these components have led me to and that's how I just see it as a very kind of beautiful amorphous and morphis thing that connects my personal life and my academic life together in one into my career.

KD: I think this is really fascinating, in regards to being able to take the things that you're passionate about throughout this journey. Because I know a lot of the time, students are in school, when they're 18, or 17 years old, the expectation is “Hey, you gotta know what you're doing with the rest of your life.” You have to come up with some sort of career path, and what it seems is what you want to do. But it was just a matter of making these types of discoveries. How were these discoveries important to you? As an individual, as you were going through this type of exploration experimentation, you can say, “Yeah, that's a great question.”

TN: Yeah, I mean, it's all about discovery for me; it was all about my motto, the thing that drives me is always learning. I always want to learn. So the discoveries come with learning and further learning and more learning and always learning. So the discoveries usually happen organically, naturally as much as personality-wise. 

I'm the type of planner who likes to plan everything. I've always had a 'life plan' in quotes. I've always known what I wanted to do and my specific interests, but I can't plan the discoveries, and it's these discoveries that set me on a journey from one interest to another, morphing in this direction and guiding me in this direction. So, absolutely, we can't know what we want to do when we're young."

I don't think we ever know, even when we're, quote-unquote, not young, what we want to do. But we can follow—at least, this is kind of my life's guiding light—to follow that curiosity that leads to those discoveries and to listen to them. I think that when I do listen to them, they tell me something and steer my path.

KD: No. And I think this is great because a lot of the time when we talk about the idea of planning—early on, and I was also like this (I'm not saying I still am, but there are aspects of my personality that are still like this, right?)—when we discuss this idea of planning, it often involves expectations. If we map out a plan, the expectation is like, 'Okay, I either do it or don't do it. If I don't do it, I'm a failure.' 

Have you ever found, throughout this planning process, that the idea of expectations led to moments of disappointment or elation? Were there surprises or discoveries along this path?

TN: Yeah, I think a surprise would be, for the question of failure, it's hard because I've really tried not to define what success means to me unless it is connected to— which, in my mind, is following that curiosity, those discoveries, listening to them, learning from them, and continuing forward. As for surprises, I think that because my expectations aren't linear, they're kind of winding or just naturally occurring, I haven't felt that sense of failure in the standard sense. Of course, there are always those anxieties, that imposter syndrome which never goes away, and all that stuff.

But surprises have always been there. The flip side of that is that surprises, for me, have always been welcome, as not setting oneself up with specific expectations means that any discovery is a welcome surprise. One thing that wasn't as much a part of my early vision and interests—let's not call it a vision, but interests—was pursuing an MBA with the Global Leaders Institute for Innovation, which was the Global Leaders Program when you did it. I know we talked about this, but yeah, I didn't think, and I've always been interested in, and I believe I've always lived the spirit of entrepreneurship by virtue. 

I have a mentor, Dana Lynne Varga of the Empowered Musician, who's a significant figure and role model in the singing world, particularly in entrepreneurship. I've been indoctrinated from a young age because she was one of my first voice teachers. I've been grateful to learn, work with her, and collaborate. Entrepreneurship is just a part of the artist's journey. So, I didn't really think of the MBA from the Global Leaders Institute as something that would be a specific byline, so to speak, of my journey or a new adventure this past year."

But it has been something that surprised me, elated me, and frustrated me at times, of course, juggling everything and balancing it all. Yeah, it's that— that would be something that I didn't expect myself to really get into in a codified way. And that's another one of those kinds of curiosity-leading-to-discovery moments, I think.

KD: No. And I think that's really amazing when we consider the role of entrepreneurship in our industry. It's not just within the music industry; it spans across all creative industries. What does it mean to sell physical pieces of art, whether it's a painting, a photo, or a sculpture? How do we build our audience today? The idea of having a manager, where the percentage they take, contrasts with today, where there are many things you can do yourself. Utilizing social media effectively is now a key aspect of entrepreneurship for you.

You've mentioned quite a few things, and the fact that these ideas were taught to you very early on in your education, how do you feel they have helped shape your career, and how do they continue to influence your work?

TN: Yeah, I definitely think that they've been significant and instrumental. As I mentioned, I've always considered entrepreneurship to be an essential component, especially in the arts and music, and for freelance musicians in general. 

The hustle, the self-made, the do-it-yourself—those have always been not the 10th option but the first or second option for me when thinking of new projects or discussing new ideas. We were just doing that before we started this. It's been natural; I accept it so much.

I rarely, interestingly, from where I'm coming from in my background, ever expect or have those experiences where an external organization or body will hand me everything, eliminating the need for entrepreneurship. Rarely have I ever had that experience. Most often in my freelance singing life and freelance research life, it's all been self-made, do-it-yourself. 

Obtaining the knowledge to write the grant, create the budget, oversee the project, and curate my own concert—all of that has been a mainstay of everything I do. So, it's hard to answer how it shaped me because the idea of entrepreneurship has essentially been the spirit of my career, I think.

KD: No, and I think that's fine. I mean, when we think about those things, because I know—I don't know about you, but I know when I was going to school in university conservatories and things like that, I had colleagues, super talented colleagues that I'm just like, 'Wow, they're amazing.' You know, who actually has pivoted because these things aren't really taught early on? The idea of entrepreneurship, at least in the course of my studies, had the emphasis that you must be good at your instrument or what you do; otherwise, no one will want you. Could you talk more about the importance of not only teaching but also being able to get out of your shell in regards to this aspect of entrepreneurship in the industry?

TN: Yeah, that's a good question. I very much identify with everything you're saying. Being conservatory trained, that's still the pervasive sentiment even though it's slowly changing. I think it's a disservice, to be honest.

I think something you're asking about—how to navigate and what can be done about teaching entrepreneurship—is challenging. It all starts with, not to overuse this phrase, but knowledge is power. If all of us in the arts, educators, artists, organizers, arts management, and everyone involved, are forthcoming, honest, transparent, and realistic with the next generation of artists, that knowledge will be empowering. It involves providing them with the realistic sentiment that they most likely will not be in the top 10% or the top 1%. They'll need entrepreneurship, and it's not just a requirement because they're not in the top 10%.

It's actually really exciting. That's how you can build your own path. That's how you can follow your passions. That's how you can do what you want to do without having to, not to say be subordinate but avoiding a bit of that. You don't have to live by others' rules; you're making the rules. By doing so, you're enacting change in the arts much more quickly, personally, and hands-on.

Then you would if you're just kind of following some path that the top 10%, top 1% have followed because that's what we teach to. So, there really needs to be, I think, an overall review, a full review of the state of the industry on all sides. This needs to be fully, wholly, and honestly communicated to the next generation. 

I've honestly been very grateful to those festivals, the summer programs that I attended, where they had those tough conversations. They would say, 'You're most likely in this room, in this arts, in this opera training program, not going to be in the top 10%.' And then there are the gasps, and for me, I'm like, 'Yeah, I know.'
I know. I'd like to hear your statistics now because I've heard that and I've grown up with it. It's always been exciting to me that, to me, that means everybody can. I'm very passionate about everybody creating their own path and charting their own course, forging, not following. 

I think that gives artists and the arts empowerment. Having entrepreneurship as something we teach, ingrained in the lifeblood from the beginning stages and accepted and celebrated, is the way to do that.

KD: No, and I think this is all really great advice and thoughts about this because a lot of the time when we think about the 'N' word, marketing, people get a little bit put off by it. It's like we view the idea of creating music or art as this holistic act, right?

You know, creating something that's very pure, that comes from the soul, from our hearts, our ideas, our visions, things that mean so much to us, and being able to share it. Now, I'm going to add to that. You can create the most beautiful piece of art, but how will people know about it? So, it goes into this idea of what you've mentioned, incorporating this type of spirit. Now, my question for you—and I'm sure our audience has this question—is, when we think about people who are shy, introverts, for whom putting themselves out there may not come so naturally, and all they really want is to share their music, what advice would you have for those individuals?

TN: Yeah, that's a great question, and to be honest and fully disclose, I'm still figuring it out myself. I am an introvert as well. Maybe people don't realize that about me, but I am very much an introvert. One avenue in which I'm still figuring it out is because I'm a researcher, and I like long-form material, also being a musician. 

I enjoy sitting through the entire concert, the full piece, the whole opus, not just a movement, right? And that is in direct rub and a dichotomy with social media, which is generally short-form. So, that's something I've been learning for the past few years to overcome and get over. Being a naturally shy person, loving your craft, and being very much all about the craft—there's nothing wrong with that. I identify that way as well, and I think many of us do.

But my advice would be to latch on, if you can, to that one aspect of your craft that makes you want to like when you're practicing that measure or when you're like creating that program or writing those program notes or whatever that makes you want to leave your room and go tell the next alive person that is there live human, right? So latch on to that because that is the source of your true passion. For me, it's how interesting the voice is, how things work, the background, the history, the culture, and all that stuff. Then I can't keep it within myself because it makes me want to express it to others.

And that is the premise of performing and music itself as well. But that is the thing that can be your step-by-step, baby-step, way to open your proverbial practice room window, so to speak. Open your practice room window to let people see a little bit of what you're working on.

Maybe it can just start with a short description, maybe then it can go to a photo of your music. It doesn't even have to be of you. Then it can become like, step by step—a little short clip of your rehearsal or something like that, right? And, so then you'll get more and more comfortable surrounding yourself with the community that you love, like friends, all the people on Facebook or Instagram, or whatever platform you use. Follow all those that have to do exactly with what social media is great for—creating community around. If you love Monty pieces and Renaissance early music, then follow all those people. You'll start to see it every time you open up your social media. You'll start to feel surrounded by like-minded humans, and then it can be a little more comfortable to open up that way, I find.

KD: No, and I think this is really great advice because a lot of the time when we think about the idea of entrepreneurship, it's like going full force, both feet in the water, type of thing. Actually being able to just say, 'Okay, well, you know, it takes steps.' Sometimes I feel we forget this in the process because, as you mentioned earlier, the idea of knowledge is power, and learning is also a process to acquire that type of knowledge. I feel like, in a sense, encouraging people, even introverts or those who are shy but really want to say something, to take advantage of going step by step in this process, as you've mentioned, and I think that's going to be very helpful.

TN: Another thing I would say is, just as you're saying, that's more of the subjective side. The objective side is honestly just learning to take it at maybe if you write in a practice journal, practice measure, blah, blah, blah, post—especially if you have a concert coming up. I mean, you want people to be there, right? You want to share this with people, so post or repost the event on your page or whatever. Writing that in your calendar, that's a little bit more of the objective way to get around that, so that you make it less personal. Just get on it, like sending an email, put it out there, forget about it till the next day, and stuff like that. That can also help people who find it to be a true drag to do, just accepting it as part of the preparation process.

KD: Yeah. And that's something I know, at least when I was studying early on in my undergraduate degree or even my master's, we didn't really have that type of information, at least roughly. Oh, geez, that's more than 10 years ago. So, thinking about it, I'm just like, 'Wow, we just opened Pandora's Box to how old I am.' 

But when we think about the industry, right? Even from 10 years ago or even 15 years ago to what it is today, what are things that you've noticed that are both pros and cons about where we are in the digital age?

TN: Yeah, great question. Well, I mean, I think that the answer to this question always has to be kind of overshadowed, for better or for worse, by what just happened in the past years. So, the pandemic, right? COVID-19 really changing, I think, the media through which a lot of entertainment—not changing, I would say, but speeding up, that's what I would say.

But yeah, speeding up the way in which a lot of media is taken in, right, by humans. So, for the pros, let's start with those. I think that has a lot of advantages. Actually, it creates a lot of opportunity, especially if we're talking about classical music or lesser-known music genres, or music styles that are seen as quote-unquote dying even though they're not, right? It opens up all these platforms that, if artists are able to take advantage of, they have so much more audience at their fingertips because the world is on the internet, right? So if artists are smart and creative, which we are, right, and are able to pivot and envision an out-of-the-box way of doing things that isn't just the way that we've been doing things for the last few years.

Then the digital age and digital media have so much that they can offer. So I would say that's a pro that I really see definitely happening, but again, slowly, especially in the past few years since things have opened up after the pandemic. There's a return to a lot of like, 'Oh, thank God, we can now go back to listening to concerts in concert halls and things like that.' And there's a little bit of the forgotten creative projects that were done—music videos, compilations, art, and all kinds of projects that people did out of necessity. Because that phrase during the pandemic, 'out of such creative things are born, out of necessity, out of no other way of doing it and no other way of reaching people.'

But a con, I would say, is that because we're in the digital age, we are there all the time, so much is happening so quickly. And I think that can also be disadvantageous to the way that the arts are developing and the way that information is getting disseminated in arts and music as well. 

So I think that has its potentially dangerous aspects, and I think that people need to really handle it with care. Everything they're doing, handle it with care, and it can also be overwhelming. There's also the con of being able to, because there's so much information all the time that it becomes suffocating, I suppose, in a way, it becomes suffocating, and there's so much noise that you can't parse through. There's just like having 30 concerts happening in one night, a billion live streams happening, and it's just too much. Right? And that's not necessarily the way that we can advance things; that's just a different way of doing the same old thing.
KD: I think this is really great. I mean, you touched on several points that are very interesting—the idea of creativity, out of necessity. Oh, my gosh. All right. When we think about creativity and also the idea of, you know, sometimes giving space to be bored, right? At least for me, some of the best ideas that I came up with have been because of boredom, which is great.

But at the same time, I know for a fact that with our industry being so saturated and with some of the things that you had mentioned, the idea of doing the same thing 10,000 times but not really being able to expand on the form. What are your thoughts on that, in regards to us finding more ways of being able to engage with people, whereas it's not this superficial like, 'Hi, I just did this piece with this conductor, LA,' but being able to connect with them personally so that they feel like they know you personally?

TN: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, it's a great point that just leads to saying, it's something that you probably also learned in the Global Leaders. They have great sessions on this, just authenticity and speaking, and even going down to the nitty-gritty, what kind of posts actually garner the most engagement, and it's all about storytelling, right? 

Authentic storytelling. That's the way to most effectively and productively engage, and honestly, it's the only way to kind of diversify the oversaturated environment because we're all different. Naturally, our stories and our authentic lives are going to be different. So for somebody, it may be like, 'Hey, look at this cool concert that I did with this conductor, and here's a clip,' or whatever.

But for somebody else, it may be like, 'Look at this multimedia art installation and sound stuff that I did, and I wrote up a whole article on it, right?' So, there are different ways of approaching the same thing, and there are different ways of approaching different things. One of my professors and one of my mentors, Ian Howell, wrote early on, before the pandemic, and it would be posted outside of his office in our voice analysis lab. It said, 'The concert hall fell asleep and woke up on his Facebook live.' It's a very salient quote, I think, but it also breeds the pros and cons because of how that was written before the pandemic. He didn't know. Of course, he maybe could have foreseen because he's kind of that way, but not really.

He didn't know, of course, that we would go through a pandemic for two years, and that Facebook Live would predominantly be the only way that people were able to hold concerts. So, you know, and that was written before that, but now with the oversaturation of Facebook Live, that's the question. Where do you go from there? Post-pandemic, where do you go, post-Facebook Live? What's happening? 

That's not just a TikTok short form, you know, what's next? I mean, we don't even know; we can't even begin to imagine it. But if we speak from our genuine, authentic selves and we are seeking storytelling, and that's how we're engaging with the public, I think it will lead itself to the next form and the next media and the next kind of platform of engagement.

KD: Yeah, and I definitely hear you in regards to the many different forms of engagement. When we think about the idea of Facebook Live, and also, I've spoken with different colleagues and different friends – I know we've talked about this in outside conversations – the idea of adding value to some sort of object, be it a recording, a book, or anything. One of the things I found with Facebook Live was that it made it possible to view without having to pay. The hard part about that – and I know there might be a lot of people mad at me right now, and I accept your anger – is that we lose the monetary value. 

People often think, 'Oh, you were born a great singer or a great clarinetist,' and I'm just like, 'No, how do you think that has an impact?' The impact and this idea of going in the direction of sustainability, because we have to eat, we have to live, but being able to maintain this balance of the authentic self, producing the best art, and finding creative ways to make it sustainable.

TN: Yeah, I mean, that's the million-dollar question. Every time this conversation comes up, I'm reminded of a meme – and I don't usually like memes – but it's my favorite of all time. It features an empty cutting board with the caption underneath saying, 'Yes, let me eat up all this exposure that I've just gotten.' You know, so many times people expect musicians to work for exposure or whatever.

Yeah, we can go back in history, and I think that idea is really late romantic, classical music ideal of this tortured artist, suffering for their art. It's not always like that. If we overfocus on one period of history, we forget others, like working musicians who had to play a new quintet every week at church because that's the way it was, or they didn't get paid. Recycling their own music because they probably didn't have enough time that week. We forget, especially in the classical music sphere, about certain eras of music history, and it's a shame. Somehow, the anxiety about the influence of Beethoven pervades not only philosophy but also the monetary and fiscal sustainability of artists in the 21st century. That's a bit ridiculous.

What I find important to overcome this is, again, education. Making it a mainstay for artists. It's challenging, and it's also a socio-cultural thing. However, it can be a socio-cultural thing. In my experience, spending time in North America versus Europe, much more often in Europe, younger artists, even at the conservatory level, expect some sort of monetary remuneration for their work. This expectation is ingrained in them from the way they were taught, whether it's singing at a church gig, playing a concert on the weekend, or performing at a wedding.

That's the way that they were taught, that's the way they saw their teachers always get money from their craft and that's gonna be a no-brainer to them. And I think in some cultures, and in some spheres in some societies, you have this idea that you should just love what you do so much that you don't care what you're getting out of it.

But, I think again, it starts with the education, of that ideal and that misconception into just regular society and making a joke out of it even at a party, when people are like “Can you sing?” and you say, well, you're a tax accountant, can you do my taxes for me at this party? So I think even making light of things like that and slowly but surely bringing it into the mainstay training of artists and their realistic idea that just receiving payment for something that you love to do is not a dirty thing. In fact, it's a way to be able to do the thing that you love, and continue to do it, right? And, and educating the outside as much as possible, that this is hard educating the outside culture and so society to support that and encourage that and, and I definitely agree with you.

KD: I know there have been times when people have come up to me “So can you play some jazz?” And I'll say, well, what's in it for me, because it's like, I'm not, we're not monkeys to entertain me, like type of thing. But, I mean, at the same time not saying that we wouldn't want to engage with them in that way.

It's just that it takes time, hours, you know? One thing I discuss is Sacrifice vs. struggle. We invest a lot of time in what we do. There are only so many hours a day to sing, and I can play clarinet or practice all day. Well, not all day, but for longer periods. Singers, I understand you guys have a limited time to practice before your vocal cords get tired. I feel like, in a sense, with what you've mentioned, it also ties into the idea of time management, how you choose to spend your time. And not only that but also the fact that we have to figure out how to rid the idea of accepting money for art without it feeling dirty.

TN: Yeah, it's hard. I just think it's a frameshift, a perspective shift of seeing music, seeing art as a vocation. It is a vocation, and, it's a craft, a trade, but it's also a vocation. So, all of those words, especially, I think "vocation," convey the idea of there being monetary sustainability to continue the work you're doing.

And, seeing it as, I mean, it's hard. Many times people say, well, you're an artist, if you don't wake up every day wanting to do what you do, then you're in the wrong business. I think that's a bit of a logical fallacy because it's a job. If you do it for your life, then artists have the great distinction that hopefully, if you're an artist, I hope that you love what you do.
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And that's not the case with a lot of other jobs in the world, but that doesn't, it's not mutually exclusive with also wanting to be able to live sustainably off of it. The way to do that is fiscal support, right? Monetary sustainability. There are going to be days when it feels like a job, where you don't want to get up and, and saying you don't want to get up and practice and you don't want to get up and like, even everything does and being in school, you don't want to get up and research. You don't want to get up and write that article. But you do it because it is your job, and many other people do that as their job too. And then that kind of frameshifts a little bit, this subjective to the objective, I think.

KD: I think this is really great. Now when we think about it, I mean, we're both young, I'm not gonna say we're old, I feel old. But when we think about younger people or even just professionals in general, what can they do to become more educated in this idea of career building? Because entrepreneurship is basically career building but on your own terms, I like that definition.

TN: Yeah, totally. I think again, something that's important is, hopefully, in organized academia and organized education, right? In academia, this is starting to be—it's starting. But, you know, just like everywhere music, where art is taught, there absolutely has to be some component of entrepreneurship.

I think it's a disservice if it's not taught. But if you don't have access to organized education, so to speak, then surrounding yourself with a community with mentors is crucial. Living and breathing entrepreneurship is very important. Most mentors are people who have built their own careers and are entrepreneurs in some way, shape, or form. They can lead by example, and I think that's absolutely what you need to do. It's a natural progression; when we're little, we say, "I want to be a fireman" or something like that because we've seen somebody who we admire, who's a fireman. I think that if we surround ourselves in the arts with such mentors and sources of inspiration who live and breathe entrepreneurship, that will naturally imbue our own modality and our own way of acting and thinking with the spirit of entrepreneurship.

KD: No, I think this is an excellent point to leave with our audiences. So I want to thank you, Theodora, for joining us today and sharing your experiences and thoughts with us. We look forward to seeing the amazing things that you continue to do for our community.

TN: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Just one last thing I want to add is that I also think it's essential to know that things are not one way. The spirit of entrepreneurship is about doing things, as you said, on your own terms, but also on your own timeline. Time is a crucial component of that, and things are always changing, always evolving.

Now, I'm in a phase of my life, finishing my Ph.D., where I'm starting to see the intersections and collaborations with medical spheres, clinical work, and applying my vocal vibrato research to muscle tension dysphonia and voice in the clinic. I'm working in collaborative performance science spheres and arts clinics, and things like that. 

It's something, for example, I wouldn't have envisioned myself doing at the start, having it be a part of my entrepreneurship, looking into singing voice specialists, and delving into voice science. But it is, and there's always room, which is what makes it a beautiful community, and I know you feel the same way.

Having so many of those multi-hyphenated things in your path has morphed, so it's always time, ever-changing, and variety is the spice of life. I think that's what makes entrepreneurship itself beautiful.

KD: Yes. And I agree with you like 200%. And thank you again for that. And I think it's going to be very inspirational for our audiences to remind themselves about.

TN: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. It was great to speak to you.